Join Mike McKay and Jackie Zach as they delve into the “Ladder of Adult Learning,” which explains the process adults go through when acquiring new skills, particularly in goal-setting. They break down each step, starting with unconscious incompetence—where individuals are unaware of what they don’t know—and move through conscious incompetence, where they become aware of their knowledge gaps. The conversation then touches on conscious competence, where learners know and apply new skills but still need to think about each step, and finally, unconscious competence, where actions become second nature.

The hosts emphasize the importance of stepping out of one’s comfort zone in both learning and goal-setting. They use relatable examples, such as learning to drive and the frustration of dealing with road construction, to illustrate how growth often involves discomfort. They also stress that while goal-setting can lead to personal evolution, it’s ultimately about the journey and self-improvement. Jackie and Mike encourage listeners to embrace the discomfort of change and to keep pushing forward, as even small shifts can lead to significant growth.

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Podcast Transcript:

Mike McKay: Welcome to the Make More Work Less podcast. My name is Mike McKay, and I’m here with my partner in crime, Jackie Zach. So, Jackie, what are we talking about today?

Jackie Zach: We’re going to discuss the adult learning cycle—or as I like to call it, the Ladder of Learning—and how it relates to goal setting. This is for people who want to set goals, especially after listening to the last couple of episodes, but aren’t sure how to start. Sometimes, they might give up when things don’t work right away. So, we’ll walk through what it’s like to learn as adults.

Mike: Great. Start us off—what does that look like, Jackie?

Jackie: The first step on the Ladder of Learning is called unconscious incompetence. Essentially, it means, “I don’t know what I don’t know.”

Mike: That’s right.

Jackie: Think about when you were a kid riding in the back seat of a car while your parents drove. You didn’t know what it took to drive—you just buckled in, and they took you wherever you needed to go.

Mike: Or if you’re my age, you jumped in the back seat and started wrestling with your brothers.

Jackie: Haha, well, there’s that.

Mike: Next thing you know, the car door opens, and you’re at Grandma’s house, ready to swim in her pool.

Jackie: Exactly! That’s how it works. In terms of goal setting, it’s the same—you often don’t even know where to begin because you don’t know what you don’t know.

Mike: Right. What’s the next step up the ladder?

Jackie: The next step is called conscious incompetence, which means you become aware of what you don’t know.

Mike: Or you realize there’s something you don’t know.

Jackie: Exactly. At this stage, you’re very aware that you need to learn something.

Mike: In goal setting, this often shows up in the size or scope of goals. For instance, Brad Sugars, the founder of ActionCOACH, once talked about personal development and goal setting. He shared that the day he learned he could hire someone to stock his refrigerators was life-changing. He explained, “There’s a list on the fridge door. I don’t have time to go grocery shopping, so why wouldn’t I hire someone to do it?”

At first, we were all slack-jawed—who even thinks of that? But then it clicked. I realized I didn’t understand goal setting the way successful, time-wealthy people do. For someone like Brad, whose time might be worth millions per hour, this kind of efficiency makes sense.

For me, it led to getting a robot lawnmower. I hate mowing the lawn, and I’d rather spend that time writing, meditating, or planning with my team. Now the lawn always looks great without me lifting a finger.

Jackie: I love that you named the robot Fred. That’s hilarious.

Mike: Even the robot company loved it! I mean, if you had a robot mowing your lawn at night with little headlights, wouldn’t you name it?

Jackie: Absolutely.

Mike: It’s normal! So, conscious incompetence is when you realize there’s a whole world of possibilities—whether it’s streamlining your life, improving sales skills, developing new products, or other areas.

Jackie: Right. Then the next step is conscious competence. This is when you know what to do, but you have to think about it.

For example, when you’re learning to drive, you focus on every action—putting on your blinker, pressing the gas, checking both ways. You’re doing it, but it requires effort and thought.

In goal setting, this might mean you know you need SMART goals—specific, measurable, achievable, results-driven, and time-bound—but you’re still setting tasks rather than real goals.

Mike: First, I’d challenge the idea that people “should” set goals—only if they want a different life, right? A lot of people prefer the comfort zone. It’s like the song of the sirens. Many would rather sit on the couch with cocktails than go for a walk or read a book. If that’s their choice, there’s no real reason for them to set goals. What would it change for them?

But if you’re listening to this and you’re on the path of building something, remember that every step up the mountain, as Kirk Ashley suggests, offers a better view because there are fewer people. If your goal is to climb that mountain and you’re learning about setting goals, then yes, it’s a skill worth mastering.

We don’t set goals solely for the results, though those are great. When we first discovered goal-setting, it wasn’t about achieving “the thing.” It was about the journey—putting in the effort, growing, and doing what was necessary to make it happen. You need goals if you want to evolve into a different person.

Jackie: Right, and if you want a different life or outcome.

Mike: Exactly. But it’s also fine to stay in your comfort zone. We’re not here to tell anyone they must aim higher. Many people choose comfort. It’s something our newer team members find frustrating because we often see the untapped potential in an entrepreneur—it’s so clear how much they could contribute. But some people choose not to see it or act on it, often due to self-sabotage or limiting beliefs.

The step from “conscious incompetence” to “conscious competence” is emotionally tough.

Jackie: It is.

Mike: It means learning something new, which can be uncomfortable. Think about driving for the first time with your new license—you had to think about every little step. But for many, the outcome is worth the discomfort. Having the freedom to drive is worth the effort.

These days, Uber might make that less relevant for some. If you live in a city, why bother owning a car? But achieving freedom through goal-setting is similar. The result is worth the effort to become consciously competent.

Jackie: Right. In a previous episode, we discussed commitment. Once you’re fully committed to learning something new and becoming a different person, it’s about stepping out of your comfort zone and being okay with that. When you can clearly see your destination and are willing to do what it takes to get there, that’s where the two—commitment and growth—come together.

Mike: Exactly.

Jackie: Eventually, you reach unconscious competence. Back to the driving analogy: How many of you don’t even remember your commute today because you were lost in thought? You drove on autopilot and still arrived at your destination.

Mike: A lot of you should probably use your blinkers more often, though.

Jackie: Haha, right.

Mike: Turn signals, people!

Jackie: Let’s add that to the rules of the road.

Mike: Exactly. But here’s what’s happening: Your cognitive load decreases because the actions are second nature. Your brain frees up to think about other things.

If you want a small taste of what it feels like to step out of your comfort zone, try taking a different route to work tomorrow. It’s harmless, but it will make your brain uncomfortable. You’ll have to think, “Do I turn left here? Right there?” Instead of your usual autopilot routine, your brain goes on high alert, just like when you step out of your comfort zone in life.

Jackie: Right. With all the summer construction in Wisconsin, we’re getting plenty of practice at that!

Mike: Great example. The other night, I got home so frustrated because road construction started earlier than announced. The ramp I usually take was closed, and I had to drive nine extra miles to get off the highway and take back roads home. By the time I got there, I was flat-out irate.

That tiny disruption felt like the emotions you experience with bigger comfort-zone shifts—like deciding to run your business differently tomorrow. It’s a small but instructive way to understand how discomfort and growth are connected.

There’s even a step beyond unconscious competence. Sure, you can drive a car, but can you handle an F1 car at 220 mph around a corner? It’s the same skill of driving but at a completely different level.

Jackie: Right. It’s a never-ending process. As you learn to set and achieve goals, remember that you’re still learning. Don’t give up when you’re outside your comfort zone—you might be just three feet from the summit.

Mike: Right.

Jackie: Until next time, go kick some ass.